Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Boyd on January 23, 2012 at 1:23pm

I too would be interested to hear from someone who has experience with both types of frames.

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Permalink Reply by Stablefood on January 24, 2012 at 11:09am

Are you referring to foundationless?

If so, I would be glad of feedback too. Our our bees are due to arrive in april. I have hand-me-down hives from a neighbor whos son tried beekeeping and lost his bees (many years ago). They are clean and ready for foundations. I was looking at modifying our to go foundationless.

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Permalink Reply by Cliffson on January 24, 2012 at 11:32am

There is a lot to consider.  A friend has tried it and enjoys it for all the reasons you mentioned, and I am about to try it this season,  but being different than a Langstrom (frame) hive, your approach to management will differ, processing the honey will difffer and there are simply different issues to address.  The more I have researched it the more I find that they are very different systems and just as I had to learn to manage a Langstrom hive, I will have to learn about a topbar hive.  An excellant resource is a book by Michael Bush, "The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping naturally."  He also has an excellant website. 

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Permalink Reply by Heather S on January 24, 2012 at 12:42pm

Thanks very much for this Cliffson, sounds like a great book and I'd love to hear how you make out with this system. I'm interested in some honey as well as pollination so it would be interesting to hear how it fares on both those scores (as well as ease, for a newby). Happy day.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 24, 2012 at 11:43pm

You can have foundation-less frames in Langstroth hives (the common box and frame hives). Top bar hives are by design foundation-less. A foundation-less Langstroth still has frames, but you don't use the pre-formed wax (or plastic) foundation to give the bees a foundation to build out their comb. Beekeeper Linda (beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com) uses and blogs about her foundation-less Langstroth hives. She has also tried a top-bar hive and was disappointed. 

Stablefood said:

Are you referring to foundationless?

If so, I would be glad of feedback too. Our our bees are due to arrive in april. I have hand-me-down hives from a neighbor whos son tried beekeeping and lost his bees (many years ago). They are clean and ready for foundations. I was looking at modifying our to go foundationless.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 24, 2012 at 11:44pm

This is a great resource for top bar hives.

Cliffson said:

There is a lot to consider.  A friend has tried it and enjoys it for all the reasons you mentioned, and I am about to try it this season,  but being different than a Langstrom (frame) hive, your approach to management will differ, processing the honey will difffer and there are simply different issues to address.  The more I have researched it the more I find that they are very different systems and just as I had to learn to manage a Langstrom hive, I will have to learn about a topbar hive.  An excellant resource is a book by Michael Bush, "The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping naturally."  He also has an excellant website. 

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 25, 2012 at 12:37am

I dunno, Heather. I'm all for trying different beekeeping methods. However I would probably not try the top bar method as a beginner beekeeper for the following reasons: 

1. The resources for help with management will be limited. Most of the books, videos, podcasts, classes, and illustrations will be for Langstroth hive beekeeping. 
2. The experiences upon which you can access will be limited. I've met tons of people who keep Langstroth hives. I only know of three people who have actually used a top bar hive.
3. Management is going to be an issue with top bar hives. The individual parts to Langstroth hives are interchangeable (for the most part). With Langstroth hives I can move a frame of brood from one hive to another to increase or decrease populations. Or I can start a nuc. Or make a split. Or combine hives. With a top bar hive management techniques are much different (and limited). 
4. Management is quite different than traditional Langstroth (and some say much more involved). I like to "work my bees" to be sure, but I barely know what I'm doing with Langstroth hives. I sure would be at a loss to know what to do to work the bees in a top bar hive.
5. When (if) you want honey, you'll have to crush and strain the comb. Conversely, a frame from a Langstroth can be put in a honey extractor and and then put back in the hive COMB INTACT. Don't overlook the value of drawn out comb. It is like gold. I cringe at the thought of destroying all the effort and energy the bees put into building out the comb in the first place. 

I know there are valid counter arguments to some of the points I made. And, I'm NOT against top bar hives. I just know that I value the education that beekeeping with Langstroth hives provides. Maybe I'll do a top bar someday -I'm just not ready to attempt it yet. 

Hope that helps. Oh, and check out beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com and SaveourSkills.com for the accounts of two beekeepers that used top bar hives recently. These two beekeepers didn't have the best experiences with top bar hives. For more positive accounts see the barefoot beekeeper (biobees.com).

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Permalink Reply by J Green on February 24, 2012 at 4:07pm

Mike Bush's site is a wealth of information on TBHs and I actually took his idea on using a plastic barrel to build my TBH.  I find the method appeals to me on many levels.  I like my animal husbandry to be as natural as possible with long term management goals instead of shorter ones. 

The fact that the honey comb is not reused is one of these pluses, IMO.  

It is a common practice in beekeeping to recycle wax to make "comb foundations". The recycling work is usually given to beekeeping supply specialists. Pesticides are lipophilic, thus accumulate in bee wax. Bee wax suppliers may mix the wax from different beekeepers, thus different treatments used by different beekeepers that have accumulated in the wax.^[21][13]

Stored in the wax, acaricides or acaricide metabolites are released slowly into the larval jelly and the honey. This benefits varroa, in which low doses create favourable conditions to become rapidly resistant^[4] while impairing the bees' health as explained above and jeopardizing the quality of honey both as a source of food for bees and as a commercial product. The older the wax, the higher the level of contamination.

The learning curve for any new beekeeper is much the same, no matter what method or hive you use..it is all new territory.  I agree that the Langstroth has more information and equipment available, but after reading about the reasoning behind using the top bar design(which has been around MUCH longer than the Langstroth) I find it meshes with my husbandry practices. 

The Langstroth is fine for commercial purposes but for the backyard beekeeper, the top bar is ideal. 

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Permalink Reply by David Davison on May 30, 2012 at 9:41pm

Heather,

I know this is late, but in many cases it depends on the state you live in and what restrictions the dept of agriculture may have on your bees.  In Florida we have to register our hives and the hives have to have removable frames.  A langstroth hive is much easier to inspect when the local apiary inspector comes to look at your hives.  Much easier to pull out the frames and turn them.  With a top bar hive, if you dont turn the bar properly, you stand the chance of having the comb break off.   Typically with a top bar hive, the inpector wont handle the frames for fear of the comb tearing off.

 

A friend gave me a top bar hive, and at this point it's more yard art than a functional hive.  I have thought of sticking a swarm lure in and see if I might catch a swarm.  I have had two hives swarm this spring already.   In both instances, the swarm landed too high in the tree for me to re-capture.

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Permalink Reply by David Davison on May 30, 2012 at 9:48pm

Have to agree with Scott on the drawn out frames (and comb) being like gold.  Much easier to re-use for the next nectar flow.  I pulled four full medium supers off my hives on Sat and am hoping to get few more this weekend before I extract from them. 

I did a little experimenting this spring by placing four frames with medium brood foundation in the center of each super (of already drawn out foundation) so I could get some cut comb honey.  They worked it really well and I should get 7 sections per frame to bottle up.  That will get me 112 sections of what I pulled this past Sat.  Definately fetches more money than straight honey 

 
Scott Ray said:

I dunno, Heather. I'm all for trying different beekeeping methods. However I would probably not try the top bar method as a beginner beekeeper for the following reasons: 

1. The resources for help with management will be limited. Most of the books, videos, podcasts, classes, and illustrations will be for Langstroth hive beekeeping. 
2. The experiences upon which you can access will be limited. I've met tons of people who keep Langstroth hives. I only know of three people who have actually used a top bar hive.
3. Management is going to be an issue with top bar hives. The individual parts to Langstroth hives are interchangeable (for the most part). With Langstroth hives I can move a frame of brood from one hive to another to increase or decrease populations. Or I can start a nuc. Or make a split. Or combine hives. With a top bar hive management techniques are much different (and limited). 
4. Management is quite different than traditional Langstroth (and some say much more involved). I like to "work my bees" to be sure, but I barely know what I'm doing with Langstroth hives. I sure would be at a loss to know what to do to work the bees in a top bar hive.
5. When (if) you want honey, you'll have to crush and strain the comb. Conversely, a frame from a Langstroth can be put in a honey extractor and and then put back in the hive COMB INTACT. Don't overlook the value of drawn out comb. It is like gold. I cringe at the thought of destroying all the effort and energy the bees put into building out the comb in the first place. 

I know there are valid counter arguments to some of the points I made. And, I'm NOT against top bar hives. I just know that I value the education that beekeeping with Langstroth hives provides. Maybe I'll do a top bar someday -I'm just not ready to attempt it yet. 

Hope that helps. Oh, and check out beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com and SaveourSkills.com for the accounts of two beekeepers that used top bar hives recently. These two beekeepers didn't have the best experiences with top bar hives. For more positive accounts see the barefoot beekeeper (biobees.com).

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Permalink Reply by Heather S on May 31, 2012 at 5:27am

This is a really fascinating discussion, thanks a lot for the numerous nuggets of advice and wisdom. We won't be deciding on our first venture into beekeeping until next year - so have a while still to learn more and decide which way to go. We've been living in England and did an introductory beekeeping course here (using National frames I think) but we're moving to Nova Scotia Canada very soon (imminently!) so it will be there that we'll have any.

My partner has a former work colleague here that has a part-time gig going with about 120 hives on rape seed and other fields in area (Cotswolds, lots of ancient woodland and wildflowers in addition to rapeseed etc.), it certainly keeps him busy! Unfortunately we've not got out with him but may do before leaving. I'm not aware of any restrictions on hive types in Nova Scotia but it's something to keep an ear out for. There's a centre that runs natural beekeeping courses very near where we'll be living, put off by Ross Conrad, I guess we'll tap into that network. It looks like he focuses on traditional frames though: http://www.windhorsefarm.org/pages/programs-events/natural-beekeepi...

Thanks a lot for the many links - will get OH onto this (alas I'm not certain this is going to be a joint activity, was terribly stung by a nest of wasps or hornets some years back and am terrified. Love the bees, love having them around, don't think I've got the nerves to don suit and work with hives).

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Permalink Reply by Cliffson on June 1, 2012 at 12:11am

Heather, I would suggest you start with two hives - a Lang and a Top Bar because they each fit different goals.  A top bar is not likely to produce as much honey as produced in a Lang, so if honey is your goal the Lang would fit you better.  On the other hand a Top bar hive is about as natural as it comes, so if that is your goal it would be a better fit.  Top bars have issues with cross comb and if not caught early the hive quickly becomes a mess. Maybe not for the bees but certainly for you if your looking to get honey.  Management of the hives is also quite different, so if your looking to "double your fun" so to speak, try one of each.   And don't be afraid to go foundationless in the Lang.  I think you will discover it works out quite well.   If you later decide to expand to more hives you will then have experience with both and know which way you want to go.

Cheers!

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