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Top-bar frames versus the standard bee hive frames (national etc) - any advice?

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone has experience with the top-bar hive method of bee keeping and if so, how does it compare to the more traditional type of frames? We're in the planning stages for having a few hives and the little I've read on the top-bar method sounds appealing (lighter to work with, easier to see what's going on etc) but it would be great to hear from someone who's experience with both.

Thanks for reading and for any advice.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Boyd on January 23, 2012 at 1:23pm

I too would be interested to hear from someone who has experience with both types of frames.

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Permalink Reply by Stablefood on January 24, 2012 at 11:09am

Are you referring to foundationless?

If so, I would be glad of feedback too. Our our bees are due to arrive in april. I have hand-me-down hives from a neighbor whos son tried beekeeping and lost his bees (many years ago). They are clean and ready for foundations. I was looking at modifying our to go foundationless.

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Permalink Reply by Cliffson on January 24, 2012 at 11:32am

There is a lot to consider. A friend has tried it and enjoys it for all the reasons you mentioned, and I am about to try it this season, but being different than a Langstrom (frame) hive, your approach to management will differ, processing the honey will difffer and there are simply different issues to address. The more I have researched it the more I find that they are very different systems and just as I had to learn to manage a Langstrom hive, I will have to learn about a topbar hive. An excellant resource is a book by Michael Bush, "The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping naturally." He also has an excellant website.

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Permalink Reply by Heather S on January 24, 2012 at 12:42pm

Thanks very much for this Cliffson, sounds like a great book and I'd love to hear how you make out with this system. I'm interested in some honey as well as pollination so it would be interesting to hear how it fares on both those scores (as well as ease, for a newby). Happy day.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 24, 2012 at 11:43pm

You can have foundation-less frames in Langstroth hives (the common box and frame hives). Top bar hives are by design foundation-less. A foundation-less Langstroth still has frames, but you don't use the pre-formed wax (or plastic) foundation to give the bees a foundation to build out their comb. Beekeeper Linda (beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com) uses and blogs about her foundation-less Langstroth hives. She has also tried a top-bar hive and was disappointed.

Stablefood said:

Are you referring to foundationless?

If so, I would be glad of feedback too. Our our bees are due to arrive in april. I have hand-me-down hives from a neighbor whos son tried beekeeping and lost his bees (many years ago). They are clean and ready for foundations. I was looking at modifying our to go foundationless.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 24, 2012 at 11:44pm

This is a great resource for top bar hives.

Cliffson said:

There is a lot to consider. A friend has tried it and enjoys it for all the reasons you mentioned, and I am about to try it this season, but being different than a Langstrom (frame) hive, your approach to management will differ, processing the honey will difffer and there are simply different issues to address. The more I have researched it the more I find that they are very different systems and just as I had to learn to manage a Langstrom hive, I will have to learn about a topbar hive. An excellant resource is a book by Michael Bush, "The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping naturally." He also has an excellant website.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Ray on January 25, 2012 at 12:37am

I dunno, Heather. I'm all for trying different beekeeping methods. However I would probably not try the top bar method as a beginner beekeeper for the following reasons:

The resources for help with management will be limited. Most of the books, videos, podcasts, classes, and illustrations will be for Langstroth hive beekeeping.
The experiences upon which you can access will be limited. I've met tons of people who keep Langstroth hives. I only know of three people who have actually used a top bar hive.
Management is going to be an issue with top bar hives. The individual parts to Langstroth hives are interchangeable (for the most part). With Langstroth hives I can move a frame of brood from one hive to another to increase or decrease populations. Or I can start a nuc. Or make a split. Or combine hives. With a top bar hive management techniques are much different (and limited).
Management is quite different than traditional Langstroth (and some say much more involved). I like to "work my bees" to be sure, but I barely know what I'm doing with Langstroth hives. I sure would be at a loss to know what to do to work the bees in a top bar hive.
When (if) you want honey, you'll have to crush and strain the comb. Conversely, a frame from a Langstroth can be put in a honey extractor and and then put back in the hive COMB INTACT. Don't overlook the value of drawn out comb. It is like gold. I cringe at the thought of destroying all the effort and energy the bees put into building out the comb in the first place.

I know there are valid counter arguments to some of the points I made. And, I'm NOT against top bar hives. I just know that I value the education that beekeeping with Langstroth hives provides. Maybe I'll do a top bar someday -I'm just not ready to attempt it yet.

Hope that helps. Oh, and check out beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com and SaveourSkills.com for the accounts of two beekeepers that used top bar hives recently. These two beekeepers didn't have the best experiences with top bar hives. For more positive accounts see the barefoot beekeeper (biobees.com).

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Permalink Reply by J Green on February 24, 2012 at 4:07pm

Mike Bush's site is a wealth of information on TBHs and I actually took his idea on using a plastic barrel to build my TBH. I find the method appeals to me on many levels. I like my animal husbandry to be as natural as possible with long term management goals instead of shorter ones.

The fact that the honey comb is not reused is one of these pluses, IMO.

It is a common practice in beekeeping to recycle wax to make "comb foundations". The recycling work is usually given to beekeeping supply specialists. Pesticides are lipophilic, thus accumulate in bee wax. Bee wax suppliers may mix the wax from different beekeepers, thus different treatments used by different beekeepers that have accumulated in the wax.^[21]^[13]

Stored in the wax, acaricides or acaricide metabolites are released slowly into the larval jelly and the honey. This benefits varroa, in which low doses create favourable conditions to become rapidly resistant^[4] while impairing the bees' health as explained above and jeopardizing the quality of honey both as a source of food for bees and as a commercial product. The older the wax, the higher the level of contamination.

The learning curve for any new beekeeper is much the same, no matter what method or hive you use..it is all new territory. I agree that the Langstroth has more information and equipment available, but after reading about the reasoning behind using the top bar design(which has been around MUCH longer than the Langstroth) I find it meshes with my husbandry practices.

The Langstroth is fine for commercial purposes but for the backyard beekeeper, the top bar is ideal.