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Permalink Reply by Pat Barr on February 14, 2012 at 9:54am

Yes, LGDs (I'd run 2 or 3) will work.  Problem will be getting them.  It's almost impossible to buy a good LGD (adult), and puppies take 18 months to be good working LGDs.  Puppies (even from working parents) between a 66 / 33 to 80/20 if they will turn into LGDs.  Without an adult to teach (actually its reenforce instincts) odds are much worse.  Secondly (without a teacher) it's also much easier to make them into porch ornaments.  They aren't like any other dogs (working or house dogs both).  They have to be independent (all LGD breeds rank at the lowest for bedience trails), and must bond with the animals they are guarding. 

I ruined my first 3 pups (then was able to buy an adult from a couple that changed from goats to sheep, but kept a couple of goats for their own milk.  She only guarded the goats.).  After I bought her, I was able to her train a couple pups. 

I sold all my animals, so had to sell them also, then after a year got back into sheep.  Because I had hard won experiece with LGD pups, I've been able to get 3 (out of 4) to almost a year old (and working mostly).  During the process I also lost 3 of the 9 sheep I bought, and still am having problems with them and my free range poultry.  (but, as I said, they aren't old enough). 

Personally, when I have a litter, I plan on keeping them until they are 6 months old before sellinig so I have a better idea if they will make LGD or just pets. 

Note, my first set of LGDs may have come when I called them... they'd never respond to me if they were dfending the flock (or poultry).  Mine (both 1st and 2nd sets ) have 1 that takes the flock to the corral area to protect them, the others go to investigate / attack / defend.  (first time I had 4 ((1 in training, and 1 "spare" for whelping), now I have the 3 pups, and will keep the best of the litter for training. 

Do everthing possible to keep other dogs (including yours if you aren't with them) out of that pasture.  Around here (and it's common a lot of places) the biggest "true" predator is your neighbors (and your) dogs that run loose at night, and pack up.  They'll run your sheep (I've never had goats) until they drop.  If you show your pups that other dogs aren't allowed, then they won't allow it.  If you don't, then, being pups will allow it (and may even join in the chase).

As soon as I had bought my sheep, I bought 2 pups (you can't have the pups first... nothing to bond to.)  To me they are as important as the fence around the animals... and worth every effort (including losing a 3rd of my flock unfortunately) to protect the flock (in the long run... I looked at it ((even though it hurt badly)) as an investment actually for the life of the farm.) Unless you find someone like me (selling all my flock ((because of health reasons only)) or like when I bought my adult ((from somone that converts from one animal to another but not fully)), buying a good working adult LGD is going to be very expensive ((and you are still buying a cull)).)

I'll be interested in reading about your experiences, and will offer advise as to what worked for me. Primarily remember they aren't a pet, but other tool (like a chain saw), and should be treated as such.  They must bond with their animals, and want to stay 24 / 7 with them if they are to do their job.

 

Pat

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Permalink Reply by Nate Davis on February 14, 2012 at 10:22am

LGD's are exactly what you need. I'd get your animals in place with your portable electric fencing first. I'd recommend electric netting from premier or kencove for poultry and even your goats and sheep. The netting will work to keep your animals in but will also work to keep coyotes and bay (make sure they are always hot). As soon as your stock is in place, get your dogs in ASAP. LGD'S will be the best deterrent for any predators you'll face. The dogs have no need for you to be there...as long as you don't bond them to YOU. bond them to their flocks and herds and they'll never depart from them

I absolutely would not farm without my dogs

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Permalink Reply by Catherine Hall on February 14, 2012 at 2:16pm

Bears were big here last year but we don't seem to have coyote trouble presently. I worry more about mountain lions and the neighbors dogs. Our neighbors lost a dog and three sheep to a bear with their favorite old Aussie surviving a big wound.

Electro netting is great for all poultry if you can get them to stay in it. I have never lost netting enclosed poultry to predators. So I do enclose young poultry in netting. I'm not sure it would function in much snow and the frozen ground makes moving it impossible. So in the winter my poultry all freely day range. Many spend their lounging time in the south facing loafing shed with our rescue llama. I think he helps a lot. He is alert to dogs and doesn't like them a bit.

Neighborhood dogs learn rather quickly to stay away from netting. Neighbors tell me that their dog no longer wants to walk down our drive after discovering the netting.

I'll put netting back up in the spring to control the mating within varieties and hopefully to raise their young. Then out of the netting again in the fall. Although my night enclosures are not bear safe I am confident that they are adequate to prevent our other major predators. Netting is pretty good against bears and I would enclose my coops in an area of netting when bears are in the area.

We have lots of hawks, owls, and bald eagles. I imagine they will eventually present a problem but they haven't so far.

Our own german shepherd patrols before bedtime and in the early hours but can't be trusted alone with the chickens. I do think that she reduces our exposure to foxes which are fairly frequently sighted in the evenings.

I do envision adding a donkey eventually and maybe another llama. Both seem to end up in animal shelters with some frequency.

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Permalink Reply by Catherine Hall on February 14, 2012 at 2:37pm

I found an ad on Craigslist for a mini donkey needing to be boarded. A friend answered before I did and they now get paid to keep a great little donkey.

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Permalink Reply by Vince Pavone on February 16, 2012 at 7:25am

I can't speak for the guardian dogs, but I have a mixed flock of chickens and ducks that free range during the day. We see fox and coyotes, but never on our land, (We have only 2 acres). I do have rather large dogs, Mastif and Rotty's. I believe that their presence is a deterrent to the land based predators.  All of the dogs are confined at night and a electric fence, the buried type with a receiver on the collar, keeps them on my property at other times. I worked Rotty's in Search and Rescue so I,m a bit biased on the breed. The livestock guardian dogs are a great idea. I would just be a bit worried about anything on two legs crossing your property line when you weren't around. Truthfully though I'd worry about any dog that I had not trained and left alone. Perhaps someone with guardian dogs will comment.

Vince

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Permalink Reply by Pat Barr on February 16, 2012 at 7:57am

My big white dogs always bark first... warning any  predator away... most 2 legged will turn and go the other way when they hear them.  LGDs are not attack dogs that are silent until the actual attack.  They bark before anything is into my paddocks (I have my 14 acres broke down into 3 paddocks so I can manage them better).  I've got 1 direct neighbor, and 1 neighbor with a small acreage neighbor inbetween us with young children.  I'm sure the direct neighbors children have been in the adjacent paddock, but I've never heard any complaints from them.  I think my LGDs (both the current set, and my first set) view children like they view small puppies, and just "put up" with them. 

If it was an adult, the barking should have them turning the other way (or if they are trying to take my sheep, the Dogs would protect them).

 

Pat

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Permalink Reply by J Green on February 23, 2012 at 2:58am

Why not double down until your LGD pups are up and running full force?  Get a donkey or llama to protect the livestock until your pups get some size and experience on their side.  Keep them in the fence, feed them and house them there, etc. Give them some good training around the smaller livestock, some basic socialization to humans during the process~ but always leave them with the livestock. 

For maximum efficacy, you might also keep one of one breed and one of another as each breed seems to have a different style of guarding.  An Anatolian keeps closer to the core group of livestock, whereas a Great Pyr likes to roam a little.  I've heard that keeping both forms a good partnership. 

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